Curse

Mordakai · Apr 25, 2007, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

I was repointing him towards an actual debate, which was about skills, runes, inscriptions, 1.5k armor, and collector & drop weapons, which as you yourself say Lyra, are not achievable by playing the game only.

OK, let's go through the list:

Skills are certainly available by just playing the game. Some Elite skills are harder than others to get, I admit, but that's part if the fun in playing the game. I don't want all Elite skills available right away.

Runes: You don't need runes to play the game, that said, as long as you don't want all Superiors you should be fine. (Unless you're talking about Nightfall's armor bonus insignia's, which IMO was a huge mistake.)

Inscriptions: For Nightfall players only, these suck for beginners. Luckily, there are plenty of Faction collector stuff available. Despite that, Nightfall at least has end Green's if nothing else.

1.5k armor: Totally achievable by just playing the game. You should have 10k at least. Nightfall again drops the ball with no Max Collector's armor, but that's more Nightfall's problem than Guild Wars as a whole.

Collector and Drop Weapons: You've lost me here. These are the things you can easily get by just playing the game. I still have a decent Purple Hammer that dropped that I still use. You don't need Max Perfect Golds to play the game... and in case you do, there are FREE chests in Nightfall that usually drop them.

Suggestions

More Free Chests: I'd like to see Free Chests in every land, not just Elonia. This would be more fair to those that don't own Nightfall, and reward those casual players that own all three. At the same time, a few more Golds on the market won't totally disrupt the economy.

Expanded Rune Quests: I liked the Minor Vigor rune quest in Nightfall, and you can't sell it. Expand these quests to allow players to get more Minor Runes of their choice (again, not sellable). Insignia Quests would be nice, too.

Greens should drop EVERYTIME: Whew, I'll get some heat for this. But seriously, are Greens for casual players or not? If yes, then they should be much more common. Anyone who wants a Green should be able to get one. Yes, this will destroy the Green economy, but honestly, aren't Greens just substitute collector items anyway? Meh, this probably won't happen but I wanted to throw it out there anyway.

Please list other suggestions/comments for making Guild Wars more beginner friendly. Consider not everyone has access to good Guilds or friends that help them out.

TabascoSauce · Apr 25, 2007, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

OK, let's go through the list:

YMMV. I do not like farming, so avoid it as best I can.

The premise is that merely by playing the game, quests and missions, sans farming, you will not have sufficient funds given to buy whatever you do not find as an individual character, a complete "kit" of 1.5K armor, runes, skills, etc for yourself and all your heroes.

The yardstick for a complete "kit" would be acceptance into a good PUG, not those nazi "ping your skill bar" ones, and able to carry your weight.

The point from above is that farming is required, nothing more or less. I would advocate, as others have, that making the plot-driven gameplay of quests and missions be more rewarding would benefit the game.

Once again, we do not know the full effects of the loot adjustment. The loot overall seems about the same to me, but I am not a farmer.

And yes Darksun, we can agree to disagree. If you think tictactoe is a better analogy to GW than the Sims, then more power to you.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Darksun · Apr 25, 2007, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

YMMV. I do not like farming, so avoid it as best I can.

The premise is that merely by playing the game, quests and missions, sans farming, you will not have sufficient funds given to buy whatever you do not find as an individual character, a complete "kit" of 1.5K armor, runes, skills, etc for yourself and all your heroes.

The yardstick for a complete "kit" would be acceptance into a good PUG, not those nazi "ping your skill bar" ones, and able to carry your weight.

Think this is interesting, since the less you play the game, less you need to have all the crazy skills & such. I'd have to agree with Mordakai. I'm farming 2hrs a week max and it doesn't get me ahead much. Most of the stuff I get is from doing Missions(replaying them for fun or bonus), quests, & just helping out my friends with quests & such. I don't really play the games just to get through them, I play cuz I like getting my characters the way I like them, and I play cuz it's fun. I did Vizuna square many times, because I loved the idea of the 2 groups coming together and fighting waves of afflicted. And, consequently, I got lots of "stuff" from having fun. more than I need.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

And yes Darksun, we can agree to disagree. If you think tictactoe is a better analogy to GW than the Sims, then more power to you.

We have to. No game will make everyone happy. As for the analogy, I can't help it that you made a poor one. Sometimes they backfire.

Pakana · Apr 25, 2007, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

You Destroyed the hope of questing in the Underworld again just when I had hope.

Now Underwold will be flooded again with 55 monks and Echo SS with an easier AI to boot.

---SNIP !----

Thank you again for listening to the your community even if I have to struggle to find a party to quest in the Underworld.

My 1st thoughts after hearing solo farming net was too: great! Finally we can get teams to play in UW!! But no. They had to turn this into a joke as well. UW and FoW remain small cookie cutter farming team zones. What a disapointment! Ectos and shards should be farmed with full teams, not by small farming teams! This way the money in game is shared more evenly, and everyone gets to play!

Yes, I sometimes solo farm UW aatxes, grasping darknesses and smite crawlers with my W/Mo, but I'd rather play with full teams, full area. And I also stand there hours with my mesmer and ritualist trying to get in teams. ToA with the small farming teams is a very depressing place to other than the cookie cutter builds!

And what's the point selling golds to the players? You can make better money waste basketing your golds and entering back to farming, than trying to sell the golds! Rare items my eye! Gold items have always been cheap, easy to buy, and a real pain to sell!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karia Mirniman

Serious question; does this game have DMs like in a lot of other rpg. Responsible people that ‘police’ the community?

Hah! They don't even act when WE report the bots. Let alone put their own paid workers after them. But I agree this would be a good thing.

--------

I try to remove my own duplicate messages, thank you. It's just that this site is so darn SLOW it takes time...

Crotalus · Apr 25, 2007, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

I would advocate, as others have, that making the plot-driven gameplay of quests and missions be more rewarding would benefit the game.

I don't understand why people are so against this. Maybe some one who is adamantly against this would kindly explain why making missions and quest more rewarding be less beneficial to the game?

TabascoSauce · Apr 25, 2007, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crotalus

I don't understand why people are so against this. Maybe some one who is adamantly against this would kindly explain why making missions and quest more rewarding be less beneficial to the game?

You got me. I do not think that any extra reward structure set up by ANet would become more profitable per unit of time than farming, so even if they made gold rewards every time a quest was completed so they could be "farmed", it would not unbalance the game.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

guinevere · Apr 26, 2007, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Hmm Gaile losing temper... I think I would have done that a lonnnnnnng time ago.

For adding Hard Mode: JeeJ, good move, I like a new challenge... but there are problems. I have a feeling Anet is promoting PUGing again... Which is not a bad idea, but sometimes turns out for the worst possible parties. Hench why a Survivor rather goes Hero/Friend way then pug it? At least the fault is with the player himself then if he messes up the title. This I don't mind.

What I ponder is, how big is this professional farming group Anet constantly refers to? I can understand people don't just want collectors items... but why change a winning concept? I was delighted when I heard about GW2. I still am, but I'm afraid Anet needs to find a way for their problems somewhere else.

What was the problem with the current normal mode? Want people to stop making real life cash with Guild Wars ingame money? Let one of the beta testers run the most known farm runs, figure out a time, and put a LOCK on that character/area for about 1 hour. End of pro farming, because no bot can be programmed to log back, and start farming again on a locked char. There will be flames... I don't care.

I'm a PvP player, where I hear tons of complements... about the inaccessibility of it. HA, TA? How hard is that for the casual player to get into a group to work for the title? Yet nothing gets done about the PvP area, where I think GW still has the perfect formula. Last couple of months we sort of heard GW1 is about to die out because of the coming of GW2. I mean no more new adventures. Hard mode will keep us busy for a while, indeed. Me and my friends enjoy it. I just don't get why a casual PvE player, like there's a lot of out there needs to get 'punished' by a farming group.

There was nothing wrong with the anti farming code, and solo-ing an area in normal mode isn't worth it. And with the current skills almost impossible in Hard Mode and the money isn't worth it.

I get the idea, get less ingame gold floating around, so prices will drop. < WRONG!!! that will not happen. Ecto's and shards will replace gold then, UW will become a popular farming ground again and money will be worthless... I already see the greenfarmers. WTS Flints wand 2 ecto... << sarcasm <<

For Gaile it's hard to stand between a dev and the community and in some way she does present our voices there, but as I said earlier, you guys build a wonderful game with a lot of potential, but atm Anets devs are just trying to stretch the date of people quiting. If my guild didn't do PvP I would have quit because of all the fuss of anti farming code+ AI trying to kite. I don't see the problem if you run into an area about 3 times, make maybe 10p and spend that on a couple white dyes... Lucky I saved up from the old days and I'll just sell up my black dyes to get the money if I need something from an NPC. Think about it, 1 mission, 8 human players with 500-1p max... that's 10-60 mins of work... and you can get just 1 rare material at the NPC...

I'm not complaining, as almost 2 year old player, I'm just surprised seeing the makers of a wonderful game, scaring their own fans away. Flame as much as you want or cut out things, facts are facts. Of 50 members of my guild, more then 34 only come online to PvP. That's just my guild... I'll stay in the best untouched part of GW, Player vs Player where no money is needed to do what you like to do, play a video game...

Last quote I can remember (end of 2005ish) was about Beacons Droknars runners... "We did not think of the level design it was able to taxi un-ascended players to Droknars, but if players want to earn their money by running, it is their choice to do so" PC Gameplay I believe... but yet the Devs did change the route so badly you couldn't even teach it to a new runner... we changed out builds and they went to new AI that really eliminated the pros from the casual runners...

There's 2 sides... one says, Anet what are you guys doing? Other side thinks, well at least PvE is challenging again in hard mode...

Ensign · Apr 26, 2007, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pkest

I beg to differ.

You're postulating that the demand for game gold is so inelastic that small changes to the supply would cause the price to plummet, and that they need to ride scarcity to keep the price up? On what truly is a luxury good?

I'll give IGE some credit, but they're not masterfully manipulating the market like the diamond cartels.

Besides, even if they were, the big gold sellers aren't farming it themselves. It's being farmed by much smaller operations that sell to the gold houses - and for each individual farmer, it makes sense to maximize production. They'd just be feeding into a vault (or e-equivilent), but they're not going to be the ones holding back.

In any case if you've paid any attention to the gold secondary market post-farming nerf, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Peace,
-CxE

cellardweller · Apr 26, 2007, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by rohlfinator

You're making a false assumption that a casual player needs all of the skills for their primary and secondary, which is not the case at all. Casual players are not expected to have every skill available to them. The design of the eight-skill limit ensures that a character can be successful with fewer skills, as long as they choose those skills effectively. And the fact that skill quests/hero skill trainers give out many of the essential skills for each class means that any player will be able to play his class well without much monetary investment.

I challenge you to show me a single player who was unable to finish the game before getting UAS.

I wouldn't need them if I wanted to monotonously grind away with the same skill bar. If I want to be able to create and expermiment with builds which is 3/4 the fun of gw, I do.

Skill quests are sorely lacking because you only ever get the skills for one of your secondaries. Hero trainers help, but they don't even give you enough hero points to buy your primary skills with them, let alone skills for your secondaries. The number of hero skills you can get is capped when you run out of blessings.

As far as your challenge goes, I would point to anyone who has ever achieved UAS. Killing the Lich is not the end of GW, it is just the beginning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

1) Runes and insignias as rewards for Masters completion of key missions.
2) Quartermaster items usable for buying other things like skills and capsigs and maybe weapon mods.
3) Increased drop rate of trophy items to get collector armors/weapons
4) More variety and better stats for collector armors/weapons + collectors for weapon mods (only work on collector weapons)
5) Stop putting collectors in the middle of nowhere -.-

All great ideas!
I would also like to add this one
6) Increase the XP rewards from quest and missions and allow the option to buy skills for 2 skill points and 0 gold.

If they either:

Increased the gold you get from normal play to the point where you can afford the fixed gold sinks
Reduced the fixed cost goldsinks to the point where you could afford them with normal play

many of the complaints would go away.

blackbird71 · Apr 26, 2007, 03:19 AM // 03:19

I originally started this explanation when I was short on time, and I felt that it needed more. I had originally assumed that the SWG debacle was fairly common knowledge among the gaming community as most people I talk to have at least heard of what happened. However, with the questions by lyra_song and others, I think a more detailed explanation is in order, considering how many parallels can be drawn between what happened there and what is happening here.

So for starters, my first post on the topic:

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird71

I'm in a little bit of a hurry, but I'll try to sum up. Basically, there was something like 32 different professions, some basic, some advanced, and players could train multiple professions, picking and choosing skills so they could make an entirely customized character. Some players were pure melee combat, or pure ranged, some were "support" characters, entertainers, crafters, etc. Most were their own unique combination, playing exactly how they wanted to play. Me? I was a pistoleer/pilot who did a bit of dancing and politics on the side, it's what I enjoyed doing. Then, SOE released the "New Game Enhancements," or NGE. This effectively changed the entire game, restricting players to one of nine linear professions, no cross training. That and the fact that the combat system became a twitch-based mess more suited for a console game, and players started cancelling accounts and jumping ship in droves.

This is the main gist of what happened, at least so far as restricting the players. However, there is much, much more that went wrong.

For starters, when SWG went online, it was a pretty good game. It had some issues with travel, etc., but a lot of these were worked out early on with a couple of updates. The main problem was the proliferation of bugs. They weren't so bad as to make the game unplayable, but the bugs in the game often made it annoying, and the greatest complaint from the players was that bugs needed to be fixed.

Something on the order of a year and a half or so after launch (not entirely certain on time frame as I wasn't there from day one, so don't quote me on that one), the devs decided that PvP in the game was not "balanced." Sure, there were some players who had said this, but it was a small group, especially considering that PvP really wasn't a huge part of the game. There was supposed to be a "Galactic Civil War," but there was never really much to do for it, no real epic battles or anything, so PvP mostly ended up being one-on one duels between players. Anyway, SOE decided to release the "Combat Upgrade," or CE, which was changed a lot of the unseen mechanics of combat, as well as changing(nerfing, rather) many of the skills in the game for the sake of "balance." Guess what? After all that, no one had any illusion that combat was now "balanced," or in any way improved. On top of that, the bugs remained. SOE's PR reps made a great show of listening to the players, who had many suggestions for improvements to the game, but above all had been "FIX THE BUGS!" This whole time, the PR reps continued to keep subscriptions active and sell new expansions by promising "we're working on it and the problems will be fixed." Yet the CE came and went, many glaring bugs, no community input was used on the balance(or anything else for that matter), and many players began to read the writing on the wall. The months following the CE saw the first major drop in players, but on the whole, there was still a viable, active community with enthusiasm for the game and hope that SOE would still fulfill their promises.

About six months later, sometime around November 1st 2004, SOE announced the NGE. It was a massive overhaul that virtually changed every aspect of the game. It stripped every aspect of individuality and customization that the players had invested in their characters, and forced everyone into cookie-cutter molds. And it was set to release on the 15th, a mere two weeks away. Their was an uproar over a change this big on such short notice. Players were outraged when they discovered that the NGE had been in the works for well over a year, long before they had even begun pitching the idea of the CE to the players. SOE had been lying through their teeth about what changes were coming, and what new features were in store for the game, as they never had any intention of actually implementing them. SOE claimed that they had conducted extensive research and focus groups with players to determine that the NGE was what they wanted in the game. However, none of these so-called player focus groups could be found for comment, and nothing in the NGE was anything like what had been suggested by players in any of the official forums. Players felt they had been fed a bait and switch, they bought one product and were given another. Many felt that they had been paying to play a beta test for two years or more. SOE claimed that they made the changes to broaden their playerbase and bring in new customers. Too bad they didn't seem to care about keeping the ones they already had. Personally, I was upset, but trying to be optimistic I stayed for a few months after the NGE to try it out. It stank. And you know what? It still wasn't "balanced."

Meanwhile, throughout the existence of the game, there were the jedi. Jedi was the alpha class, the best in the game, both in terms of prestige and capability. In order to create a jedi character, it had to be "unlocked" through an intense and lengthy grinding process. There were actually two methods over the course of the game, both difficult and time consuming. A dedicated, hardcore player might unlock a jedi in a few months time. A casual player could do it, but you had to be dedicated enough that you spent nearly every moment you had in game doing something to work towards it. I decided to do this, and I spent the better part of a year working to become a jedi. Then, when it was within a couple months' reach, the NGE. The grind to become a jedi was removed. Instead, jedi were now one of the nine playable professions, anyone could start out as a jedi. And guess what? It quickly became apparent that the jedi stank like last weeks roadkill. They had become the only truly melee based combat profession, and they were horrible at it, easily being picked off at range. So much for balance, and so much for working towards rewards.

Now you may ask, what does all this have to do with Guild Wars? Other than half the title, the games are nothing alike, are they? Well, true to an extent, but this lesson is more about how the dev team handled the game than any specific game mechanics. Here's a few lessons I that think would be in Anet's best interest to learn from.

1. Be honest with your players. Don't use your PR reps to try to pacify the masses by telling them what you think they want to hear. Don't give only a partial story. Don't lead them in one direction while steering the game in another. If you're having problems, let them know, players will generally be forgiving if they feel you are being forthright with them. If they think that you're hiding something though, they'll be all over you.

2. Listen to your players. They've had a lot of experience playing your game and others, and they often have a lot of good ideas. Not all may be reasonable or even possible. If an idea just can't be done, tell them, but don't let them feel that you're not listening at all. Also, if you have a choice between one of your ideas and players' ideas, go with the players, they are after all the ones you want to keep buying your products.

3. Don't sacrifice the fun of the game for "balance." Balance is a bit of a myth, the game will always be in flux, and every player seems to have a different idea of what makes the game "balanced," so how are you possibly going to satisfy everyone with it? Yes there has to be some level of balance, but it can't be the ultimate goal of anything and everything. If a game isn't perfectly balanced, but the players still enjoy it, why bother tweaking it and risking a backlash? Beware thoughts like "this is great, but it could be better if we just add one little thing..." As they say, "if it ain't broke," and so on. If a game isn't perfect at the start, fine, it's still the game people buy and get used to. Small changes and minor adjustments may be in order, but once a game gets momentum going, major changes are going to put you at odds with a lot of the players. If new content unbalances old content, change the new rather than the old, you'll upset a lot fewer people.

4. Be careful with "end game" rewards. If you have some sort of difficult to obtain, end all, be all, ultimate item, or even lesser rewards, make sure to protect them above all else. What I mean is, you can't have something that takes players a significant investment of time and effort to obtain, and then remove it from the game, make it less than it was, or make it more difficult to get. Many players work a long time to get these items, and those who have them don't want them cheapened. Those who are striving to get them don't take kindly to having their goal snatched away, whether it's removed completely or just moved further beyond their grasp. Once things like this are in a game, they're best left alone and kept as is. When players put that much of themselves into reaching for something, they get very offended when something about it changes.

Over the past several months, with changes to skills, game mechanics, and now the loot system and economy, I've noticed a disturbing trend of disregard for these lessons. No, Anet has not made changes as drastic as SOE did, but they are gradually moving in a direction that many players are unahppy with. Skill changes in the name of balance upset the PvE base. The SR nerf was one of the biggest issues here, and even when Anet admits that their fix isn't the right one, they still leave it in place and try to come up with a way to tweak the fix rather than trying the players' solutions. And now, with the loot changes, it seems that Anet is intent to tell it's players one thing while doing another, either intentionally or through incompetence. Also, making it harder for casual players to achieve their long-term goals by this potential upset of the economy is a surefire way to bring the house down on their heads.

A lot of us have argued over the details of the effects of the recent changes, but even many of those who have opposed my opinions have agreed that the casual players are hit the worst by this update, the same players we are told it was supposed to help. And whether or not it really does cause all this harm, the fact is that there is a large perception that it is a bad idea, and Anet is doing little to allay anyone's fears. Even if it turns out that we are all wrong, the damage is done, players have already begun leaving the game. Now, Guild Wars is nowhere near being past saving, but if it is to be saved, Anet needs to turn things around soon. They need to start truly listening to the players, they need to be open with us about their intentions, and they need to seriously think things through before making these kinds of changes. They need to decide first whether or not the changes will actually do any good, and secondly if the good is worth upsetting however many players may be affected by it. If Anet fails in this, they'll have a lot of angry customers. The way the game is set up, they won't lose any subscriptions over it, but they've already announced at least two more Guild Wars products, and it's not going to be good if they destroy relations with their best group of potential buyers: the current players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

All in all, it pissed off everyone currently playing the game, while not attracting anyone new.

Exactly, and as far as I can tell, Anet has put themselves on the path of doing just that.

arcanemacabre · Apr 26, 2007, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

All great ideas!
I would also like to add this one
6) Increase the XP rewards from quest and missions and allow the option to buy skills for 2 skill points and 0 gold.

If they either:

Increased the gold you get from normal play to the point where you can afford the fixed gold sinks
Reduced the fixed cost goldsinks to the point where you could afford them with normal play

many of the complaints would go away.

Agree with all of this, and what Lyra wrote. I am 100% for increased income for everyone, no matter what they choose to do. I am also 100% against one type of playstyle getting most of the income. Obviously, if you work harder at it, be it high-level farming, or high-level adventuring, you get bigger rewards.

manitoba1073 · Apr 26, 2007, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I'm actually doing an experiment.

I made a new warrior using my PvP slot in Cantha.

Shes gonna go through PvE with some very special rules.

1) Always full parties, hench or pugs.
2) No access to Xunlai Storage.
3) No Farming.
4) No buying of skills that would NOT be buyable from that trainer (as in...ill pretend i dont have any unlocked skills...)
5) No free items from guildmates. All purchases are from traders or other players.

I'll try to have my results by next week.

lol Lyra

Ive already done that awhile ago and had even posted the results. I even made it harder to. no running no short cuts and i did it on a mesmer lol. ill tell you the results youll be surprised alittle. She finished prophecies with a little over 37k and droks armor and perfect weapons.

Albert Algorn · Apr 26, 2007, 04:48 AM // 04:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelic Upstart

Well i don't know what to say really, after trying out the new modes of play after the update/nerf, i can only conclude that the game for me at least is now boring to the point of where i have nothing left to do in game

I 'm sorry to say that Angelic Upstart's comments pretty much sums up the effect the last "update" has had on me! I have only played once after it - because it just wasn't the same game at all. A lot of the fun was seeing what would drop, knowing something would drop, even if it wasn't great stuff. At least I could grind away and eventually get enough to buy 15k armor or that rune or purchase a green weapon from someone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelic Upstart

Regarding hard mode, i really cannot be bothered to try to grind my way through Prophecies again especially when faced with DoA types of mobs, the same applies to Factions and doubly so for NF which was a grind to get two players through it let alone do it on hard mode.

I finally finished one of my 3 campaigns (NF) but don't even waste my time in DoA because it's just too hard. Now I'm faced with three DoA like campaigns if I am going to make a few lousy K! I prefer to stay alive and take on mobs that I and my friends or heroes can actually kill. Now doing that nets me... well practically nothing.

I understand Anet's desire to nerf the bots and well they should but there must be a way to do it without changing the game so drastically. It seems like people have gone from being excited about the prospects available in the Eye of The North and GW2 to quiting all together. In the end this is a game and if it isn't fun I won't play and I'm sure a lot of people are contemplating the same thing.

Master Sword Keeper · Apr 26, 2007, 08:58 AM // 08:58

Quote:

not those nazi "ping your skill bar" ones, and able to carry your weight.

I am sick of these players...If I don't show my build they kick me. Discrimination. I won't share my build at the fear of it getting nerfed. I had the best farming build ever then I showed someone by pinging. A day later it got nerfed. I am not pleased.

Nerf that stupid SKILL SHARE WINDOW!

Quote:

I'm sure a lot of people are contemplating the same thing.

amen to that. This game is less than fun. I log in then log back out and quit.
Where's the appeal?!? Gone with the rest of the bloody fun stuff.

Hengis · Apr 26, 2007, 01:28 PM // 13:28

I wonder how many of the grind based money sink titles are now simply not achievable.

Take the Sweet Tooth title track:

Buying sufficient Red Bean Cakes to gain the highest level title would cost 2 million gold.

If you are lucky and farmed sugary items during the events you may be able to get say 1000 items in the course of a year.

This reduces the cost to 1.8 million gold.

I don’t know the exact figures, but I am going to be generous – let us say that playing normaly through the game can now net you 100k.

That leaves 1.7 million gold to find.

Without being able to go out and farm, where on earth (or in Guild Wars for that matter) are you supposed to get that kind of money?

Yes, some people may be able to solo farm ectos. Some may be able to farm in DOA. Some people may get that one in a million ultra rare lucky drop. The less skilled (or less lucky) player who could previously achieve the title by having the pure persistence to farm lots and lots and lots of minotaur or termites or trolls now has no hope whatsoever.

The same applies to the drunkard track, the lucky/unlucky tracks, and to an extent the treasure hunter/seeker of wisdom tracks too. (Some people may be lucky and be able to make a profit from chests, but they are only there as a gold sink - so for the majority of people opening chests = lose money in the long run)

I am sure that there will be comments along the lines of “but you don’t need these titles”. This is absolutely true, you don’t need them. Not needing something is not the same as not wanting to try and get it.

If the recent changes are left as is, then there really needs to be some kind of rebalancing of the money sink titles, or some other way of obtaining these titles needs to be introduced that would enable the titles to be gained by working for them over a reasonable length of time.

boko · Apr 26, 2007, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

This is wrong. We all know money comes in no matter what. The point is to control it, not stop it. Changing how solo farming works is key to controlling it & stopping ebayers. If solo farming wasn't such a huge part of the economy there wouldn't be so many people complaining. But no matter how much it hurts the economy, trying to tell someone they can't make cash as easily is never going to be well accepted.

Exactly my point. Gold is always going to come in one way or the other.

U say "control", but in what way is it really controlling it? The way I see it is that only money from low end farming is nerf. Cash from other sections of the game for e.g Hard Mode has been addded if not buffed. The money is still coming from other places. In other words, the economy has seen no real dramatical changes or decreases, if not more inflation. The only difference is that now money will be more availble to the hardcore farmers and casual players are left even poorer. All it does is a redistribution of riches where the poor gets poorer and Rich gets richer. In other words, while Anet say that this update was aimed at making things more available to the casual players, it does exactly the opposite.

Dun't get me wrong. I do agree there is a need to control the economy, but this is one of the worse way to do it. Buffing the rewards of quest/missions would have for one, been much more beneficial than this update. And it would be more on the spot too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksun

Changing the focus of solo farmer's income to selling rare items to other players is genius, but there is a problem: they really need an auction system to make it as quickly as solo farming.

Completely agree with that part though. If their aim was to change the casual players;s main source of income from common items to rare items, then they should have added an in-game auction system to facilitate this transition.( which is highly unlikely unfortunately). But still, relying on a rare drops is still a highly unreliable source of income. What Anet should have done if they wanted this update to work was to add other means for casual players to make money, e.g buff rewards for quest/missions and then people would have at least a reason to play those quests/missions. Coz the way they stand at the moment, quests/missions are mostly a chore and with hench+ heroes feel more like a boring useless grinding than anything else.

lyra_song · Apr 26, 2007, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

lol Lyra

Ive already done that awhile ago and had even posted the results. I even made it harder to. no running no short cuts and i did it on a mesmer lol. ill tell you the results youll be surprised alittle. She finished prophecies with a little over 37k and droks armor and perfect weapons.

Im doing it in Cantha with a melee char

(Explosion ftl!!)

But ya...post up your results. id love to see it.

Im cataloging my results (money earned, money spent, weapons gained, skills learned, time spent)

Cantha has zero running and shortcuts anyway.

TabascoSauce · Apr 26, 2007, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird71

Over the past several months, with changes to skills, game mechanics, and now the loot system and economy, I've noticed a disturbing trend of disregard for these lessons. No, Anet has not made changes as drastic as SOE did, but they are gradually moving in a direction that many players are unahppy with. Skill changes in the name of balance upset the PvE base. The SR nerf was one of the biggest issues here, and even when Anet admits that their fix isn't the right one, they still leave it in place and try to come up with a way to tweak the fix rather than trying the players' solutions. And now, with the loot changes, it seems that Anet is intent to tell it's players one thing while doing another, either intentionally or through incompetence. Also, making it harder for casual players to achieve their long-term goals by this potential upset of the economy is a surefire way to bring the house down on their heads.

I had a friend play SWG, and he said it was pointless to become a Jedi. Evidently, and this is off of memory, he played back in the old days and was a Bounty Hunter, and he was making bank all the time off of bounties put down by players on players. He was a total ambusher from rooftops and such, and just on that premise which tickled me pink, I almost joined except for the $15 a month thing.

I totally understand your point because you phrase it so well.

To what you are describing in your post, would it be fair to say that the devs at SWG were in a proverbial "ivory tower"? I do not know about you, but the terms "willful disconnect from the everyday world" and "intellectual elitism" seem to me to apply. They are/were ignoring the player base and outright lying to them. That's a total lack of respect.

Any insular group (with the so-called "in" crowd) is in danger of that.

Since this whole thread is really about ANet, why not ask the same questions of them? If ANet is not in their ivory tower, then reading this post will not bother them, because it does not apply.

I appreciate the insightful post! I may be quoting you on other threads.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

lyra_song · Apr 26, 2007, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

I had a friend play SWG, and he said it was pointless to become a Jedi. Evidently, and this is off of memory, he played back in the old days and was a Bounty Hunter, and he was making bank all the time off of bounties put down by players on players. He was a total ambusher from rooftops and such, and just on that premise which tickled me pink, I almost joined except for the $15 a month thing.

^^ That sounds fun. I think similar ideas have been posted in sardelac for GW2.

Quote:

Any insular group (with the so-called "in" crowd) is in danger of that.

Us included.

We at fan forums are quite loud. Some of you dont understand or appreciate just how much pull you have on Anet's decisions.

However, i don't think we have all the data. No matter how good you are in this game, you can't vouch for the gameplay experience of someone else unless they directly tell you.

I wish Anet would release their figures so we can give better feedback based on hard data that we cannot obtain.

blackbird71 · Apr 26, 2007, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

To what you are describing in your post, would it be fair to say that the devs at SWG were in a proverbial "ivory tower"? I do not know about you, but the terms "willful disconnect from the everyday world" and "intellectual elitism" seem to me to apply. They are/were ignoring the player base and outright lying to them. That's a total lack of respect.

That's the situation exactly, at least as far as we players saw it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Since this whole thread is really about ANet, why not ask the same questions of them? If ANet is not in their ivory tower, then reading this post will not bother them, because it does not apply.

If they are not in their ivory tower, then where are they? I won't say that Anet has distanced themselves from the players as much as SOE had, but seriously, where are they? There have been plenty of valid concerns about these updates expressed by the players in this and other threads and forums. Every day I see new posts of people saying they are leaving the game and have no intention of purchasing any more GW products. If Anet is so connected to the playerbase, shouldn't they be doing some serious damage control? At the very least, even if they don't care at all for the players, they should be concerned with future sales. I think their lack of response or efforts to allay any fears speaks loudly to the fact that there is a disconnect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

I appreciate the insightful post! I may be quoting you on other threads.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

No problem, quote me wherever you like

, glad I could help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

However, i don't think we have all the data. No matter how good you are in this game, you can't vouch for the gameplay experience of someone else unless they directly tell you.

I vouch for my own personal experience, and that of my friends and guildmates who feel the same way. A lot of what we do in these forums is speculation based on our best understanding, but there's also enough people relating their own experiences to validate the points that have been made against this update, at least to the extent that it requires further consideration and explanation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I wish Anet would release their figures so we can give better feedback based on hard data that we cannot obtain.

I agree, this information, or for that matter, any information at all, would be extremely helpful.